So what’s happening with the FLDS

I found the whole story of the FLDS riveting when I was in the States.  For those who don’t know the whole drama, a polygamist religious sect were living in a big compound in Texas.

They had very little contact with the outside world and had many women and children with not so many men.  I am not sure how many wives each man had, but definitely more than one.  Many of the girls get married and have babies when they are teens.  The husbands are often way older than them, like 30 years older or even more. The women wear long pastel dresses with puffy sleeves (picture the Voortrekker women) and have scary pull-the-ox-wagon kind of hairstyles. They are simple people living a simple life.

Someone had called in and told a newsreader she was sexually abused in the compound along with other girls. The authorities swooped in and found underage mothers and pregnant girls and all hell broke loose. They jailed the leader and some other men and the 435 kids were taken away from their mothers to a place of safety. When I left the US, they had still not been reunited with their frantic moms and many were in foster care. Only nursing babies and those under 2 were allowed to stay with their mothers.

These kids who had never seen TV, most toys, never had rich foods or take outs etc were kept by strangers in an environment completely different to everything they knew.  It was very sad.  So what is the right thing to do here?  The 2 ladies who had once been in the sect but were now free agreed the kids should be rescued and the women assisted.  I agree action should always be taken if abuse is suspected but I disagree with the way it was handled.  Why couldn’t a whole team of social workers, psychologists etc move into the house with the mothers and kids and work with them there.  The damage done to these children by a well meaning state, is irrevocable and tragic.  Imagine your own kids removed from you care for weeks on end with no contact.  Them living in a totally foreign environment? 

So what is the latest? What do you think they should have done?
(PS, read the nutjob comment from my post on the of 20th of April..... weird chick!)

Comments

[Andrea]

I totally agree with you on this one. While there may have been some abuse going on, I think the larger issue was the "authorities" passing judgment on a different way of life ... certainly not my way of life, mind you, but who's to say how/where kids are the happiest? It was handled terribly, and over sensationalized. Especially in this day where it is common to have children out of wedlock, who are we to condemn that society?

[Josephine]

I put "other" as I think there is are many more factors involved.

It is for sure tough to be separated but since the child welfare officials "told the judge the children were living in an authoritarian environment that left girls at risk of sexual abuse and raised boys to become sexual perpetrators", they removed them from their mothers as well since they are not sure how much involvement the mothers may have had with the abuse.

This is probaby what authorities would do in single cases if there was a risk of abuse.

With this magnitude the authorities might not have been prepared to deal with all the issues etc and have enough pyschologists etc qualified to deal with this. It seems they thought time was off the issue and stormed in without wondering "what next". Hopefully, they get all the care they need.

The previous leader was one of the USA's top ten most wanted men at one stage.

It seems to have dissappeared from international news.

US readers -is it still very much in your news? What about the Austrian Case - The Fritzl case?

[Rowan]

I was directed here from Tertia's blog.

If you can get a copy, read "Escape" by Carolyn Jessop. She is the first woman to well...escape...from the FLDS compound with all of her kids and had been the 4th wife of a powerful man in the sect. Her testimony regarding the forced marriages, the abuse and deprivation that these women and children go through is part of what helped convict Warren Jeffs. It's horrifying, and I think an important read for everyone.

I absolutely think the right thing was done. The women could be just as involved in the abuse as the men, in the interest of "discipline" - to the extent of throwing a 4 year-old around, hitting the bed frame, beating him senseless. There is a lot of brainwashing done in the name of religion and the men are at the head of it - but the mothers weren't all that innocent either and the kids suffer as a result.

This is not merely a different way of life, this is depriving children of an education and subjecting them to frequent abuse and even neglect. I don't see that being excused even under the reasoning of religion.

[Coral]

Yes, your commenter on 20 April is incoherant! = nut job!

The kids should always stay with their moms, they at least will feel safer that way.

Hope your credit card situation gets resolved soon, what a hassle, one you do not need.

[thrice]

Got to love that commenter. *eyeroll*

I don't think that the answer is so simple here. If the mothers are/were polygamist they were breaking laws too. I *think* that when one is dealing with that level of abuse, everyone needs to be separated to figure out what is going on, before all the "testimony" gets tainted.

No doubt it could have all been handled better, but how? The Bush administration has raped agencies, such as the ones that handle this case, so that they have little or no resources. Very, very difficult.

[sweets]

good grief... that weird chick definitely has some issues with whores; tattoo’s and brain tumours!!!... LOL

[Helly]

Many of even the younger children had had broken bones at some stage. They are now investigating abuse of the younger boys :( After the women and children were removed from the ranch they were kept together for a while in one place. Apparently the mothers and a lot of the older children refused to give names/lied/coached the younger children on what to say

I have been fascinated by this case and done a lot of googling around it (BTW, kids over 1 have been removed - I might not agree with their religion but one poor mum I read about had twins just over a year and 2 others under 4 - my heart broke when I thought how hard it would be for her and confusing for the children).

What I have read about the child services is that they are trying to make it as easy for the kids as possible. Sibling groups kept together, manuals given to all the carers on everything from dietary requirements (no processed food, food similar to what they had on the ranch) to clothes (no red at all, get them clothes they were used to) and the environment they come from.

What really struck me was a recent statistic - of the 53 girls 14-18 years old *31* were pregnant or already mothers :(

I feel so sorry for those poor children but do think it was the right thing to do...

[Flicka]

I think it's very hard to get a clear perspective on what's actually happening because of the media circus. Everything that's been reported has been filtered through the lens of the media which is always looking for a sensationalized story. So of course you are always going to see weeping mothers and traumatized children and angry men and defensive state workers. They've been cast into specific roles by the media and it's impossible for them to break out.

I too have been reading up on polygamous sects, about their history and their present-day practice. And I really, truly think that the state had no other choice than to remove the children from that situation. I don't doubt that the mothers are grieving and I'm sure that it was heart-wrenching and handled badly. When the state is involved, especially with such large numbers, stuff like that always is. But the larger truth is that while there may be pockets of loving, although vastly different, culture tucked into Utah and Texas, the majority of polygamous sects hurt children and women and even men. Those children needed to be gotten out of there.

Dorothy Allred Solomon was raised in a polygamous household and talks about it in her book "Predators, Prey and Other Kinfolk." It's a great read if you can get your hands on it. She had a loving father and lived with seven plural mothers who also loved her. But she still suffered. And some of the women she knew who grew up with less loving fathers suffered much, much more.

It's hard not to have compassion for the women and children of the FLDS compound. I think we SHOULD have broken hearts for them! It doesn't mean that the state did the wrong thing, though. Hopefully now everyone will get the help they need. As always, we need to pray for these poor women and children and hope that they find their way to truth and freedom.

[Meg]

The whole story has left me very concerned. When the DA spoke up and said that the lifestyle was 'abusive' because women were taught to 'obey', i realized that this had nothing to do with the supposed accusation, but was religious prosecution plain and simple. And sadly, no one seems to care. The only comments i hear are people making fun of the clothes, or the hair, or the womens' eyebrows. It makes me wonder who is next - the Amish? Orthodox Jews? Are they just going to start picking off religions, starting with those who dress oddly and keep to themselves, so that no one speaks up until a precedent is set and it's too late? Is the government going to make the argument that Catholics are 'endangering' their children because of the high rate of abuse among the priests?

I'm a lone voice in the wilderness over here. When i say that i think polygamy between consenting adults should be legalized so that these cults aren't driven underground, inevitably someone will shriek 'Would YOU want two husbands?' It doesn't matter what i want. I have no desire to pick up another man's socks, or to share my kitchen with another woman. Yet i do firmly believe that the government should not be able to tell us who, and how many, people we can marry. It's simply none of their business.

Okay, this sounds all crazy and ranty, but i really hope that someone reads this and even if it doesn't change their mind, simply makes them aware of what's going on... and the next time that something like this happens to another group, maybe they wonder if it's the right thing to do and the right way to handle things.

[Sue]

Hey - I live in the states, and followed this pretty closely. There is actually a pretty big attempt by the men of the sect to manipulate the public's views of what is going on. The mothers actually had an opportunity to stay with the children until this was sorted out, just not back at the ranch. As it stands, the men told the women to come back, THEN sent them out on dozens of carefully scripted interviews with the media making their situation out to be that they were not allowed to stay with the children.
Also, the 'sect' is keeping the familiy members secret. Meaning, with these 400+ children living in foster care, most of whom don't know their own last name of who their father is, are having to be divided into families with DNA testing, making the process long and laborious.
Finally, while I do understand the arguments saying this is religious persecution, I must disagree. In the eyes of this government, there are laws in effect regarding plural marriage, underage marriage, and statutory rape. Those are really the issues at the core of this situation.
Anyway, just an American view of the situation...

[Bev]

I've read Carolyn Jessop's Book - which was quite an eye opener. Apparently, many of the children don't even know who their proper mother is. Some of the men married as many as 20 or more woman because according to their Prophet (who claimed to have direct access to God) - the more wives they had the better their "place" in Heaven. These women are completely brain washed to believe that they need to be "in harmony" with their husbands at all times even if it means having to discount their own feelings and the feelings of their many children. The children are not educated in case they get ideas of their own and question their fathers...

[Jen]

I think there is some misunderstanding about what is going on here.

This is not the first case of abuse on these break away mormon sects. The fact is that as soon as girls reach 12 or 13, they are forced into marraiges, frequently against their will. These can be (and often are) to close relatives, including uncles, cousins, etc. The man you mention who was jailed was arrested quite a while ago and was conviced because of forced incest and rape for making a girl (13-ish) marry her uncle against her wishes.

The girls are often beaten and raped. Furthermore, many boys are forced out of the community so there is less competition for the older men who want to "marry" and have sex with the young girls.

If the 13-year-old girl living next door to you was being raped by her uncle with her parents' consent, wouldn't you think she should be removed from the house? The rights of these girls shouldn't be an exception just because the parents claim it's religiously correct to rape and abuse them. This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with enforcing the law.

There has also been a lot of evidence of long term physical abuse found in the children - many broken bones, etc. This was not a happy peaceful place to be a kid.

None of these charges stem from polygamy, by the way. The marraiges are "spiritual" and thus not illegal. There is no law agaainst a man living with and sleeping with 10 women (nor 21, which I believe was the wife count for one of th leaders). The issues all arise from the sexual and physical abuse.

Stories from people who have escaped from these sects give real insight into how terrible the conditions where there.

And just one other note - it is not permissable for social workers to move into someone's home here. That just simply isn't an option. Another commenter made the point about the options the mothers had for staying with their kids.

[wookie]

I think it's unfortunate that the women and kids have to be seperated, and certainly stressful for all involved, but this is the way the system works. This is what the laws about protection are supposed to do. They remove the children from the situation.

Social workers and psychologists don't move into abusive homes. They take the kids out and provide what they can at a "one step removed" scenario because that is what is in the best interests of the children.

The mothers may end up facing "failure to protect" charges while the men face all the stautory rape and other charges. I hope it doesn't come to that because it sounds more like these women were largely brought into this well before the age that the could consent or make their own decisions, making them survivors/victims of abuse as well. But in a black/white sense, these women appear to have failed to protect their children from what is legally defined as sexual abuse.

[Laura from Ga]

I haven't read the comments, so forgive me if i am being repetitive...I think that under the circumstances it was handled the best way it could be. While I feel sorry for the kids, the mothers are unable to protect them because they have lived this life most see nothing wrong with it. Abuse is not a "lifestyle" choice. Girls as young as 12-14 are being forced to marry much older men sometimes those men are family members. I read that over 50% of the girls 14-18 are either pregnant or have given birth This isn't the first time this has come to light. There are a lot documented evidence of abuse. It's not just the girls either...boys who are deemed threats to the older men are often banished from the community. Small children are now being found to have broken bones. It's just a tragic situation, but I do believe that the children had to be removed.

[BrooklynGirl]

I think it was a difficult situation all the way around, and no doubt there has been some damage done to these kids by the way the were removed from their homes.

However, in my opinion (for whatever that's worth, it was far more damaging) leaving these kids in their former homes--where 31 of 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 are or have been pregnant--would have been much more damaging.

I would have more sympathy for the religious persecution arguments if it seemed like the children had willingly chosen this way of life.

[Stephanie]

I have a lot of empathy and sadness for the moms and the kids- I think it's a tragedy, and I'm sure that it was, and is, traumatic. I'm this situation reinforces the group's belief that they are prosecuted for their beliefs. Which they are. I personally have no problem with that. A society has to set rules. We have to set rules. And we, as a society, have to enforce them.
I don't feel bad about saying that it's wqrong to force a 13 yr old girl to marry a 50 yr old man. I don't have a problem with saying it's wrong to force a child to have a baby, long before their bodies are physically developed enough to handle it. I don't have a problem with the centuries long custom fo monogamous marriage.
I think the majority culture has a right to decide what it will and what it will not tolerate. I do empathize for the people who are prosecuted for their beliefs, but they made their choices. They decided, with full awareness of the laws and culture of this land, to not follow them. And I'm ok with the idea that there are consequences for their decision.
Believing God wants you to do it does not give you a free pass. There are seriously mentally ill people who sometimes kill because "god told them to". This deserves no more of a free pass than that does.

[tess]

i don't know a great deal about the case, but i think the media spin has emphasized one aspect of the case.
i don't think this was the best way to handle it, but i am at a loss to think of a better one.

regarding meg's comment of religious persecution: while i *try* to obey my husband in our marriage, and i do respect different religions choices, traditions and cultures, i do not agree that when abuse is occuring we ought to stand back and observe, all in the name of religious tolerance.

[Neda Ann]

I have been following the FLDS story for years. Something needed to be done. It isn't right for young teen women to be forced to marry & consummate marriages with much, much older men who are sometimes related to them. I have nothing against a polygamist lifestyle if that is what someone would like to lead, however these children were not given choices. The children were forced into these relationships and that is where the problem lies. The leader was arrested a few years ago for raping a 14 year old girl. If he is willing to rape young girls what is he teaching the other men. And I doubt he had any sympathy towards the women or young girls. I'm not sure if it was handled in the best way possible, but this is an extreme case and I don't think it is possible to have a perfect handling of it. Those kids and women are already scarred emotionally no matter how this was handled. I just hope that everyone gets the emotional support and assistance that they need.

[Kelli]

Oh boy, this is a sad situation. I suppose I can understand the children being taken away for their safety, and I guess I should change my vote. Although it's hard not to feel so heartbroken for the mothers and children being separated, for the safety and well-being of the kids it's probably the best. So sad. There's not really an easy answer to this situation.

[PiquantMolly (AKA Mollywogger)]

I think it all comes down to the fact that the children in these situations were not given a choice -- their parents were willingly breaking the law of the United States and (from what we have learned) hurting their children in doing so, and the children were being forced to comply through no choice of their own.

It sometimes brings to mind the cases that we read about now and then when a child is denied life-saving medical care (sometimes something as simple as insulin for diabetes) because their parents believe that they can be healed by prayer or other spiritual means. That happened recently to an 11-year-old girl in the state I currently reside in, and and the parents were charged with reckless homicide upon her death.

I am aware of my own ethnocentricity here; I recently finished reading "The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down," which compares the American health care system with the traditional healing practices of the Hmong people. It is obvious that we, as Americans, allow a level of government intervention in people's lives that other countries may not. However, I can't help but feel that any situation in which a child's life or health is threatened due to choices that they can't themselves make is one where the child needs someone to advocate on his or her behalf.

[Andria]

I lived in Abilene a short while, and went by the compound several times. I always got an eerie vibe from it... it just didn't seem right.

[sheilah]

I voted 'other'. Child Services still needs to follow the RULE OF LAW. They are too willing to trample on parent's rights. Texas CPS/DCF/whatever violated the US Constitution. Before these people can invade your home they need probable cause. An anonymous phone call to a hotline is NOT probable cause.

As for the 'broken bones' some people are talking about, one child in CPS custody broke a bone...in less than a month. Is that abuse? None of the doctors in the (Eldorado) area have ever had any suspicions about child abuse in the compound. I'm not sure that 41 broken bones out of over 450 children is so out of line. Especially in a rural environment where instead of sitting around watching video games or TV, they are probably outside running and jumping and they may even be helping their parents in farming activities.

On the other side this, this church is just too stupid. A way to get the feds off of their backs is to just come out and condemn 'relationships' with underage girls. Then to stick with it. There is just no reason for these idiots to 'marry' underage girls. What total morons.

Anyway...I don't believe the state handled it well (I really don't like CPS, their actions, and the way they stomp all over constitutional law) and the church itself needs to stop being so stupid and arrogant and get their heads out of the ground and WISE UP!

End rant.

[K]

Another fascinating book on the FLDS is "Shattered Dreams" - http://www.amazon.com/Shattered-Dreams/dp/B000QJLTOG/ref=sr_1_19?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210179616&sr=8-19. The narrator had 13 children in like 16 years in absolute poverty. Her family fled to Mexico after the Utah government raided Short Creek in th 1950s.

I do agree this smells a little like religious prosecution EXCEPT that the women here are underage. If consenting adults want to be someone's second, fifth or thirty-second wife, that's fine, but these are not women, they're children and the state has an obligation to protect them.

Interestingly, I read somewhere the the mainstream LDS church has been reaching out to other polygamous sects basically saying they will work with them to be part of the main church so long as they stop marrying off young girls. This group, the FLDS, was the only one that refused to talk.

The Mormon faith in general is actually quite fascinating. "Under the Banner of Heaven" by Jon Krakaur is a really sad account (I haven't been able to finish it as it starts with the murder of a pregnant woman).

[Jennifer Margulis]

The **men** should be prosecuted for polygamy as it is against the law. Women and children should not be separated and I'm not sure the Texas authorities are handling things well. But there's a context here that many may not be aware of--women from the community have been asking authorities from Nevada and Arkansas to help them for years but most of the local police are FLDS and actually return girls trying to escape to the community instead of EVER prosecuting perpetrators (the older men who are marrying them by force and kicking out hundreds of teenage competitors from their midst). A lot of abuse is taking place and no one has been doing anything about it. Read Carolyn Jessup's ESCAPE. Texas isn't handling it perfectly but at least they are trying to do something...

[Anon]

I posted a long post and it was eaten by typepad. my friend is fostering five FLDS children. These children have been severely emotionally abused. I can't say too much but I will say that based on what I have seen, I pray everyday that these children will NEVER return home. It's awful.